Build the Wealth. Protect the Life. Risk the Rest with Sandro Forte (#204)
Updated: Oct 26
THE PICTURE OF WEALTH · EPISODE 204
What should a business exit make possible—and how much capital is enough to protect that life? Sandro Forte joins Dustin Serviss to discuss the human side of selling a company, separating lifestyle security from entrepreneurial risk, and planning for purpose after the deal.
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This transcript was generated from the episode audio and lightly edited for readability. It may contain transcription or speaker-attribution errors. Refer to the recording for exact wording.
In this episode
The £45 million exit. Sandro describes a London owner who sold after thirty years of paying himself £100,000 a year and addressing 300 employees every Monday; the transition was emotionally debilitating, in his words.
Build the wealth, protect the life, risk the rest. For that client, Sandro put roughly £30 million into a plan to secure his life and gave him £10 million to keep being an entrepreneur; the new venture was a mistake, but as Sandro tells it he has not lost money.
Coaching over prescribing. A plan has to include what the owner wants to do next; Sandro's example is a client wanting £250,000 of indexed income and money for other businesses from £5 million, where his answer is that you can't have both.
A first meeting with no paperwork. For people in vulnerable situations he skips the fact find and asks what they are going through; he says he turns away about thirty percent of prospects and has had no client complaint in thirty-eight years.
Selling with no obvious buyer. Dustin raises owners of $2–8 million businesses who are too small for private equity; Sandro recommends a confidential exit adviser so the sale stays off the radar.
Set the rules early, aim high. Sandro says he was too subservient in his first eighteen years, argues transactional advisers are the ones AI threatens, and closes with his horizon goal: people fail by aiming too low and hitting.
Chapters
[00:00:27] Who is Sandro Forte, and how did he become Dustin's mentor?
[00:03:17] Who are Sandro's clients, and how many are business owners?
[00:05:09] What happens to identity when a business owner sells?
[00:06:31] What did a £45 million exit do to one London owner?
[00:10:09] Why does Sandro's first meeting have no paperwork?
[00:12:38] What can a premiership footballer teach about building a relationship?
[00:14:25] Who buys a $2–8 million business in a small town?
[00:17:22] How does a confidential exit adviser keep a sale quiet?
[00:20:26] Should you split your money into a secure bucket and a play bucket?
[00:21:42] Why can't you have £250,000 of income and invest in other businesses?
[00:27:05] What happened when a blunt sports figure asked what Sandro could tell him?
[00:32:16] Does AI threaten transactional advisers?
[00:34:25] What is a horizon goal?
Guest & resources
Related episodes
Transcript
[00:00:00] Sandro Forte: On the other hand, this particular individual that I was talking about, thirty million gave him more than enough to meet all of his objectives. Yeah. So the ten million, that was okay. That's a win, lose, or draw outcome for him, and he can invest however he likes. That was his go carry on being an entrepreneur money, but let's lock in and let's reward you for thirty three years of hard work, and let's make sure you and your family is secure for the rest of your lives.
[00:00:27] Dustin Serviss: That is the voice of Sandro Forte, who has been a long time mentor for over twenty years. Long story short, I reached out to him about twenty one years ago. I was just getting into the business, and I wanted to seek out a mentor. And I literally looked him up in the Internet. He was part of the top of the table from the million dollar roundtable, which is... Means he's a a successful financial planner, works with a certain client. And I reached out to him and said, you know, this is where I'm at. You know, can you steer me in the right direction? And Sandro took me under his wing, sent me a book, and
[00:00:59] Dustin Serviss: has stayed in touch with me over the years, and we've met numerous times at MDRT meetings in North America. And this episode was truly special in connecting with an old friend. But what we're talking about is he lays out a story of a business owner who sold a... And, again, Sandro's in the UK, so it did take a little bit to coordinate the meeting because of the time change. But he lays out a forty five million pound business transaction and what that business owner experienced through that transaction, what advisers that person had to engage, and what conversations Sandro had with that business owner to actually
[00:01:38] Dustin Serviss: map out a plan before the sale and after the sale. And now there are a few years after the sale, what actually happened to this business owner and what they did with the money after the sale? It was really enlightening to hear about it, and we debate some pretty interesting strategy, not really traditional financial planner speak, but we both have enough experience to wait into the conversation, maybe slight disagreement. But at the end, we came out friends, and I look forward to the next conversation with Sandro. But I look forward to sharing this with you, listener. Sandro Forte, thank you for coming on the show.
[00:02:25] Dustin Serviss: You were on a long time ago, and I will link you up to the, to the past episode listener.
[00:02:31] Sandro Forte: Thank you for having me, Dustin. It's been quite some time since I've seen you, but lots has happened for both of us in that time. I'm just as excited to hear about what's been going on in your world as well.
[00:02:41] Dustin Serviss: Well... Yeah. So, listener, just to fast track it up, if you haven't listened to that past episode, Sandra was my mentor, met, like, nearly twenty some years ago in the the financial planning, life insurance investment game. And we've stayed in touch all these years, crossed paths a couple times. And, Sandro, you are... You're still working in high net worth, ultra high net worth, royal family market just to keep... Bring me back up to speed. So that's who your clients are. And would you say out of your client block, how many are business owner, or how many have kinda ties to a business?
[00:03:17] Sandro Forte: So I have currently six hundred and six clients, which is probably four hundred and six too many. But it... Obviously, as Justin, when you grow a business, it evolves over time, and it changes direction and demographic changes and requirements change and legislation changes. And inevitably, what happens is you deal, for example, with a business owner. To answer your question, about sixty percent of our clients are business owners, and the rest are primarily sports stars and celebrity clients. We do... You alluded to it. We do... We look after one royal family, which I probably shouldn't mention.
[00:03:50] Sandro Forte: But the reason for that kind of evolution is because we stumbled over a period of time on a number of really important factors that I think a lot of business owners consider, and we just became very familiar with the marketplace. Unfortunately, the unintended consequence of dealing within one particular market is you might get a business owner who says, will you look after my son or daughter? They've got ten grand to invest. And you don't wanna say no because they are obviously part of the future plan of that individual. So you end up doing quite a lot of work for for someone who you wouldn't necessarily take on as a client.
[00:04:28] Sandro Forte: I'm not suggesting for one minute. I wanna make this very clear. Our prerequisite for taking on a client is not wealth. Wealth has never had anything to do with it. It's about the relationship. And if we are confident that person is invested in us as we are in them, then commercially, it has more value for both parties. So although people talk about me working in the business market and the high net worth market, the overarching reason for working that market is most people are good decision makers. Most people understand the benefit of long term planning. They just... It's easier to communicate them on a... With them on a particular level.
[00:05:03] Sandro Forte: That... It's just the marketplace I settled into. I didn't have any aspirations to go into it. It just happened that way.
[00:05:09] Dustin Serviss: Yeah. For sure. I I appreciate that intro. That... That's way better than I could have ever done. So thank you for that. And kinda dovetailing off, let's zero in on the sixty percent of the clients that are business owner or... And the sports stars would actually likely fall into. Because what we're talking about is... And what I'm specifically driving this conversation into is when a business owner sells a business and that exercise. So there's... A celebrity also would have maybe an end of a career, And they're at the end of the career, so maybe there isn't a big buyout like a business owner would get, but there is an identity shift.
[00:05:46] Dustin Serviss: And there is this sort of realization that happens. And it's often... And I might just... Because we're two males talking, be harder for males or maybe it's just equally for the female, but harder for the males to articulate that sort of emotional, maybe stuff that's going on their head, and they don't really recognize some of those emotional things that maybe happen after the business. So I'm giving you a long intro to kinda go wherever your brain goes in the stories and experience you've had with business owners in that realm of either the work you did to help them get prepared to sell or the work you did after to help
[00:06:28] Dustin Serviss: them gain comfort in their sort of new world.
[00:06:31] Sandro Forte: It's interesting what you said there because as you were talking, I'm thinking that's my niche or niche as you would call it. Because the one thing about working with business owners, particularly those, as you say, Dustin, who are transitioning from that regular paycheck, I'll take you back three years to a guy who sold a very successful business in London, forty five million, a nice payday for him. But the transition to that forty five million was emotionally really debilitating because what happened was he'd spent thirty years paying himself a hundred grand a year. He had three hundred employees who he would address every Monday morning,
[00:07:11] Sandro Forte: and he lived a a a life that was for his people. So when he eventually sold and was no longer the CEO, was no longer addressing this amazing family of employees, he went through a very, very tough emotional period. And twenty years ago, there was no such thing as vulnerability. People weren't vulnerable clients. I studied, and my most recent examination, my most recent certificate is a qualification in working with vulnerable clients. Because what I see is people think that if you retire, how can you be emotional about it? Circumstances in all manner of ways change very... Almost completely for some people. Divorce is a vulnerable event.
[00:07:56] Sandro Forte: Bereavement, English as a second language. All all manner of things do affect people. And now I think that I'm correct in saying more than fifty percent of the people that we will come into contact will display at least one one vulnerable characteristic. So understanding what people go through emotionally, people make financial decisions based on both left brain and right brain thinking. Right brain, of course, as we know, is very emotional. They tend to see things using... And make decisions using their heart instinct, whereas you... The left side of the brain, which is the logical side, helps them to
[00:08:33] Sandro Forte: validate why it is they want to do something. So wanting to do something is right brain driven, understanding, and coming up the logical reasons to do it is left brain thinking. What people tend to do, stop market collapse, transition to retirement from running a business, we shift to right brain thinking, and that's when all kind of things take over. So step number one for me is understanding... Talking to business owners... Let me put it like this. Talking to business owners like a business owner rather than as an adviser or rather than as a car salesman or whatever it is you do,
[00:09:10] Sandro Forte: creating a relationship, building empathy, communicating on the right level is all about putting yourself into the mindset of that individual. And if you can do that, if you understand what they're going through and it resonates with you and you articulate in the right way, you're six eighths away to building a really good relationship.
[00:09:30] Dustin Serviss: And in the... Can you give a... Without getting into the weeds of the exact file, but can you get into sort of what an example would be? I'm thinking of a listener who has sold a business or is about to sell a business, and they maybe have some of those markers of feeling like something's off or wrong or... But they could use some... And, again, this isn't meant to be a sales pitch, but I I wanna get... I wanna help listener if they are experiencing some of those traits that they're like, man, it just would be nice to talk to somebody and just get a different perspective.
[00:10:09] Sandro Forte: Yeah. And... Look. My approach has always been that the first meeting I tend to have with people, we never... In in my profession, and I realized there'll be all kinds of listeners, business owners that listen to this, and they won't necessarily speak our language because we work or have worked in the financial planning space. But, normally, for those who are not familiar with the process, normally, the first meeting would be what we call a fact find meeting. We gather information. We go away. We put a proposal together. Usually, for people in vulnerable situations, my first meeting is no paperwork, no fact fine, no no detail.
[00:10:44] Sandro Forte: It is about getting into the head of the individual. Tell me what you're going through. What are the the the key issues for you? What are the nonnegotiables? Where are you struggling? Because, ultimately, I want to take on people that I think I can add value to. I don't wanna work with people who I don't think I can add value to. So that first meeting is relationship focused, and that's all. If I can resonate with them, if I can add some emotional value, help them through that that process. And for some, by the way, I've referred them to psychologists because they... Or psychotherapists because they really do struggle.
[00:11:19] Sandro Forte: Others, it's just about untangling the weeds. It's about, I've sold my business for forty five million. What does that look like? Can I survive? Can I achieve all the? What things I want to achieve? What do you wanna achieve? Not quite sure yet. Or... So that first meeting, remove all of the all of the systems and processes that make people feel like it's a transaction. My business has been built as yours was on on a deeply embedded relationship. And I say no to probably thirty percent of the people I say yes to simply because if I don't generally think I can add considerable value to the process
[00:12:01] Sandro Forte: they are going through, if it doesn't resonate with me, if I don't have the expertise or the knowledge to guide them through, I would rather refer them to someone else. But reputationally, that's great for me. We've never had a client complaint in thirty eight years, and I think it's because I genuinely focus on the process rather than the outcome. So I'm not sure that answers your question specifically. But a great example, if I can just shift away from business for a second, but it it links in a rather tenuous way. I... The very first premiership footballer I ever dealt with was probably two thousand and ten, and I went to a wedding.
[00:12:38] Sandro Forte: I was invited by his bride to be. Didn't know him at all, but we got talking at the bar midway through the evening. And he said to me, what do you do for a living? Now if I was talking to him as a financial planner or whatever it was I was selling, for example, then... And he saw the benefit only to me. In other words, I'm a financial planner, and the perception naturally is this guy wants to sell me something because that's what all financial planners do. Right? That... That's a short lived conversation. On the other hand, if I observe three basic... Or one of three basic principles, basic principle number one is everyone wants to
[00:13:14] Sandro Forte: talk about themselves. Basic principle number two, everyone wants to solve a problem. And basic principle number three, everyone has some kind of ambition or goal or objective they wanna achieve. And so for me, a premiership footballer has one key objective, and that is to carry on earning the same money that he or she has enjoyed earning for twelve or fifteen years if they're lucky. Most of them, sixty five percent of footballers, fall off the financial cliff. They're bankrupt within five years because there is no continuing income after they've lived in this bubble for twelve, fifteen years. There is no plan.
[00:13:50] Sandro Forte: Now if I present myself as a financial adviser, they're thinking he was just gonna sell me a product and not interested. On the other hand, if I deal with the key issue for him, which is this fear of going the same way that everyone else before him has gone, then it leads to a meaningful conversation. So it is with business owners. Understanding that process they are about to go through really helps you to build a relationship on a completely different level to the more transactional approach, which is okay. I've got a fact fine. Let me gather some information. I'll give you some advice.
[00:14:25] Dustin Serviss: Yeah. No. That's super helpful. And I can tie it into something that is mysterious to me, and it's fitting that you're in the UK. Far away from me, different region, big business. I would theorize that many of your clients would have to, you know, want to sell their business or will want to sell their business and have friends who have sold their business. And there's this mysterious thing called private equity or this, you know, bankers. And in in the region we live, it's a town of, say, two hundred and fifty thousand people. It's upper end. But the businesses are at a weird, a clumsy, I would call it,
[00:15:05] Dustin Serviss: size, where they're not fifty million or even kind of forty million. There is some there. But there also could be, like, two to eight million. A lot of business owners would be in there. And so when it comes time to sell, you now have... The foreman doesn't make enough to buy it. And their competitor, they don't really wanna tell their competitor that they're for sale because it's a small town. And then private equity, it's too small for that. So then they think, how much is... I'll ask how much is your net worth? Oh, ten million. How much is your business worth? Ten million. It's like, okay. So who are you going to sell to? Oh, I don't know.
[00:15:41] Dustin Serviss: And so in your world, where have you found clients get over the mental hump of working with an institution or working with a private equity group that isn't somebody they might know? So call it a third party. And it... Because what I find is clients will say, I don't want anyone sniffing around here. And then they end up working longer than they likely had to, even though the business was a good... There's a certain spot where their age and their ambition is at its highest. And maybe the market gets an inflection point where that type of business should have been sold at that point. I give you all that as a big backdrop of what you find with
[00:16:20] Dustin Serviss: clients dealing with third party buyers.
[00:16:24] Sandro Forte: I think... Let me take my own business as an example. We've got to a size now where we are, I wouldn't say unsellable, but the market opportunity for us if we were looking to sell, we're not. But if we were, we're probably too big now for most. And with the benefit of
[00:16:40] Dustin Serviss: For most of one person or for me as an adviser to call you and say, I wanna buy Yeah.
[00:16:44] Sandro Forte: Yeah. K? My my son and daughter work in the business. It's too big for them to raise the funds to buy me out. Where do we go? If we go the PE route, then as you say, you have to hawk yourself around the market. Your clients get wind of what you're trying to do. That creates some unsettlement. So that's not really a a very palatable solution. What we found, and I think back to when I tried to buy a property many years ago, my time is valuable. I don't wanna spend time looking around for a home, so I go find a house finder, and we charge them with the responsibility. This is the prerequisites. Here's the nonnegotiables.
[00:17:22] Sandro Forte: Go find me a house, and I'm gonna pay you to do that for me. In my world, to answer your question, we've worked with a a very good business called Initium. And Initium... And I'm sure every community has one to a greater electrics, lesser extent. Initium are a company, a partnership of individuals, all with vast experience in lots of different areas where confidentially they will take the requirements of a business owner, typically exit, and they will put together an exit plan. They will... Working maybe on the financial planning side with us, for example. They will bring in the right lawyers. They will bring in the accountants.
[00:17:57] Sandro Forte: They will find the buyers, and it's all done in a way that is completely off the radar. So my strong advice to most business owners, not all, but I think if you find yourself in a situation where there's no obvious buyer, there's no obvious route to exit, then employing somebody to do that for you so you can carry on doing the things you do best in a way that's most profitable and at the same time? Because I think running alongside that is what does exit look like for me financially, emotionally? Do I get to achieve the things I want to achieve? So for me, there's two things that run-in parallel.
[00:18:36] Sandro Forte: There's the work I might be doing with them to help them transition to wherever they want to go. And for some, that might be as as my client who sold for forty five million. That first get to know each other session, I was like, are you ready to retire? He said, not really. I feel like what I'd like to do is to maybe get involved in another business. So what we did is we carved out some of the money. We put effectively thirty million pounds into a a a strategy... Financial strategy that made sure financially he was secure for the rest of his life, and we gave him ten million to play around with. And it was...
[00:19:11] Sandro Forte: If you invest in another business and you wanna do it all again, which by the way, he's lived to regret. He's now looking to exit that. But if that's what he wants to do and what people want will always be greater than what they need, if that's what he wants to do, then that has to be part of the plan. But alongside that, we've got Initium working now as they were then to help find a buyer because it's above my pay grade to go finding new... Acquiring companies. It's both a big and a small market. It's small in the sense that there's not many companies out there that will buy one point two billion pound funds under management financial
[00:19:48] Sandro Forte: services practice any more than there's too many businesses out there that want to buy a business that operates in London at forty five million. But that said, there is a market of finding the right people to take you to that market without you having to kiss a thousand frogs along the way. Because that's the problem for most people is, of the time you've met with and been through due diligence with four, five potential acquirers, it's not a secret anymore. It's not confidential anymore. Everybody knows about it.
[00:20:18] Dustin Serviss: Yeah.
[00:20:19] Sandro Forte: I always think it's worth investing something in a firm that can do the whole a to z for you.
[00:20:26] Dustin Serviss: I'm gonna... I didn't have this sort of in my idea file, but I want a tangent because you mentioned it about bucketing the money. So you got this thirty million tranche of money that's set up in a plan. That's like the, hey. Don't pull on this. It'll generate your life and take... Then you've got this other bucket of money that, in theory, he could screw it totally up. He could totally screw up that money, and his life is still gonna be okay. Take the numbers and bring them down to more palatable, above average people. And say someone has four million dollars or five million dollars at age fifty.
[00:21:06] Dustin Serviss: If they took three million and just set it aside, they've got two more million that they could literally try stuff with and still be okay. What would you devil's advocate to me about that? And then when I think of the two million that we're just gonna play with, I think if you could take high risk, you could take high risk leverage or lend. Not so much leverage. Just to clear that. No leverage, but you could do a hundred thousand in twenty different angel investments. You could do some real estate. You could... You know what I mean? So how would you beat up that strategy?
[00:21:42] Sandro Forte: To be clear, Dustin, I'm not applying a one size fits all approach here. So let me give you an example. Somebody comes to me with five million and says, what I want on one hand is two hundred and fifty thousand pound a year income for the rest of my life, and I'd like that to be indexed, please, so that in real terms, it's always two hundred and fifty grand. And what I'd quite like to do is to invest in a whole bunch of other businesses. I would say you can't afford to do both because if you are investing three hundred... Three million pounds for two hundred and fifty thousand of income, you are
[00:22:12] Sandro Forte: gonna deplete that capital unless you are taking a high level of risk with that capital, which I wouldn't recommend if you are now in wealth preservation mode in your life. On the other hand, this particular individual that I was talking about, thirty million gave him more than enough to meet all of his objectives. Yeah. So the ten million, that was okay. That's a win, lose, or draw outcome for him, and he can invest however he likes. That was his go carry on being an entrepreneur money, but let's lock in and let's reward you for thirty three years of hard work, and let's make sure you and your family is secure for the rest of your lives.
[00:22:51] Sandro Forte: If you then blow the ten million, that's okay. But if we take the other scenario where somebody then has unrealistic expectation of what they can achieve with the five million to use your example, the advice has to be you can't have both. You've either got to reduce the three million from two fifty... Two hundred and fifty thousand as in... As income to say one fifty, then absolutely you can take your two million and go do whatever you wanna do. But that's part of financial coaching rather than financial advice. Because what most people will do is they will see the five million and they'll say, give me the five million.
[00:23:28] Sandro Forte: I'll make you lots of money. But if they don't get to scratch the itch, then that financial plan isn't gonna be an enjoyable process. No. And what will happen is after a couple of years, they'll go, I need to take some money out. I wanna invest in some other businesses. And that's not good for them, and that's not good for me. So what's the point? You may as well get them dealing with and working towards what they want. Now in this particular guy's case, three... Nearly three years on, he's... It was a mistake. Now fortunately, he hasn't lost any money. He'll get his money back and a bit. And so we're back to square one. But he has...
[00:24:04] Sandro Forte: He can walk away knowing that he's done the things he wanted to do. Whereas too many of us in our profession prescribe what we think they should do based on some kind of matrix or textbook that says, you know, maximize return, give him the maximum income. If in the background, he just wants to get involved in something else, that's gotta form part of the plan.
[00:24:28] Dustin Serviss: Yeah. No. I I think that's the old school mentality of scare the people that they should save all their extra money for retirement because there's more fees in that. And then when they call and say, hey. Can I have a bit? Say, oh, what are you buying? So that, I think you're right, is being a partner to them opposed to being a a person who's got the... I wanna say the safe. But you are... I'll have clients... I don't know if you find this, where clients will call or send an email. You can feel them feeling anxious that they're asking for their own money. And you'll say, hey. It's your money. And so as... And as long as you're not calling...
[00:25:06] Dustin Serviss: And like you said, you don't have three million and you're calling every year for a three hundred thousand dollar trip to Africa or whatever it is, then the plan will stay on track. You... Okay. So I wanna come back. I know we've come ping ponging a bit, but I wanna talk about the celebrity and how you... Because the influencers are also a thing. Is that now a thing? So what are you finding with, say, celebrity, sports star, influencer where the the... That lifestyle is very... I don't wanna say, yeah, you need to show a lot. But are... Is the trend more savings, or they live in more for the... Living for the moment?
[00:25:49] Sandro Forte: I think it varies. And this goes back to what I said earlier about this selection process. And I don't want to appear arrogant because, you know, I think that's the last thing on my list. I don't think that I have ever been arrogant, but I think there's a... There's got to be a confidence behind... Look. The the basic the the basic foundation of all human interaction is for a relationship to exist and develop, two people must, broadly speaking, feel the same way about each other. And for too long in our business, it's been, I need you more than you you need me, coach. And that's something you've heard me say before.
[00:26:25] Sandro Forte: Now I'm not saying that you should adopt a position where I feel that you need me a lot more than I need you. In other words, I don't need you at all because that's not what I'm saying at all. But too many of us adopt a very subservient approach. And when people have egos and by by their nature, most people in the celebrity world have individuals around them that spend an awful lot of time blowing smoke where smoke shouldn't be blown. Right? Now I'll give you another example of a very well known... I wouldn't say a celebrity, but he's very well known, and he works in the sports world. And he was introduced to me...
[00:27:05] Sandro Forte: I'm going back probably eleven, twelve years. And he was introduced to me with a risk warning, and the risk warning was that this guy does not suffer fools gladly. He basically spends two minutes. He gives most people who's got... Who have got something to say or something to sell or a partnership to offer. He gives them two minutes. And within those two minutes, it's a goodbye or it's a yes. Let's talk some more. Right? So this is a very driven, focused, no nonsense kinda guy. And he came to my office, and, of course, I've got this risk warning ringing in my ears. And his very first question to me, just as he folded his arms and
[00:27:44] Sandro Forte: crossed his legs, and I'm thinking, body language blood wise, this is this is already not working out. He leaned forward in his seat to me, and he said, so what do you think you can tell me that I don't already know? Those were his exact words, verbatim. And in that moment, I've got two choices. I either do what most people do, which is feel very intimidated by this guy who is supremely wealthy, eye wateringly wealthy, very strong character, no nonsense, no messing around, straight to the point. So I either die in that moment, metaphorically die, or I treat him the way he treats other people.
[00:28:25] Sandro Forte: So I summoned this bravery from somewhere, and I folded my arms, crossed my legs, leant forward, and said, if you stay here long enough, I'll tell you. And he smiled, and he said, I think you and I are gonna get on really well. So for many people, they get used to a particular way of doing things, a particular modus operandi. They are used to getting what they want, when they want. And sometimes you just have to say, it's not the way I work. Now that's a high risk strategy if someone is dangling a financial carrot in front of you because you look at the transaction, right, and you go, I don't wanna risk don't wanna risk losing this client.
[00:29:04] Sandro Forte: But in my experience over thirty eight years, the more you risk, the more you make. Right? And to your... To the earlier point that we talked about, for anyone listening that's going, hang on a minute. This guy seems to always do the right thing by clients. Surely, commercially, that cannot be good for his business. It's all well and good being a saint and being the person who's straight down the middle and puts clients first, but commercially, that can't be good for your business. Actually, for full transparency, Dustin, it's great for my business. The simple reason that when I said to this guy who sold his business,
[00:29:41] Sandro Forte: you give me thirty, you keep ten, and do what you want, and I will make sure you're financially secure, guess what happens? He comes back to me with the ten several years later. He introduces me to eleven people now, all of whom are business owners. So, commercially, he has more value to me because I didn't try to sell him than if I did try to sell him. So I wanna make it clear that if I'm looking to build a long term relationship, I absolutely guarantee that commercially, the relationship will have as much value for me as it will the client. But sometimes you just have to be prepared to walk away from a deal to win it.
[00:30:18] Sandro Forte: It's as simple as that. And that's what many very good business owners do. Donald Trump is an expert at it. Richard Branson is an expert at it. They get what they want because they push so far the other way. It always almost makes them compelling to wanna deal with.
[00:30:37] Dustin Serviss: That's right.
[00:30:37] Sandro Forte: I think, again, easier said than done, and it's easy with experience. If you're if you're just starting out, you're trying to grab everything you can get. But as a basic principle, you gotta create the rules now. If you allow someone to trample over the top of you now, it'll still be happening in twenty years' time, and you can't grow a business with someone calling the shots. You've gotta you've gotta create the rules of engagement right up front.
[00:31:01] Dustin Serviss: That's what I was gonna ask. I was gonna say, if Sandra Forte, twenty five years... Well, I'll say say thirty. If you're thirty eight years in business, you've only been in the business eight years, and you don't have the wealth that you have now, your kids are smaller, Do you still hold that same bravado, or did the bravado come because you're confident in yourself, say, financially and business wise now at your age?
[00:31:27] Sandro Forte: My business took off about twenty years ago. So it'd be fair to say for the first eighteen, I was probably just slowly building it a a kind of a process of osmosis, very slow. If I'd known then what I know now, I would have gone in two footed way before I did. I was feeling my way in. I was far too subservient. I allowed people to dictate the rules, and I've still got one or two clients now. I wouldn't mention their names in case they listen to your podcast. I've still got one or two now that I wish I'd never taken on. Yeah. If you're really serious about growing business, I think you've got to
[00:32:02] Sandro Forte: accept that the number of transactions may be smaller, but the value of each transaction will be higher, and therefore, you're working smarter rather than harder. Everyone... Most people I know
[00:32:15] Dustin Serviss: Yeah.
[00:32:16] Sandro Forte: Strive to work smarter to increase average case size transaction, call it what you will. But I also think that thinking about the shift in the world in which we live, AI, it's something we talk about all the time. I hear people saying, is it a real threat to our business? And the answer is, yes. It is if you are transactional, Of AI will blow those people out of the water. If on the other hand, you continue to build long term relationships and you're dealing with people on an emotional as well as a transactional basis, then I don't think AI does anything other than enhance that proposition.
[00:32:53] Sandro Forte: Like I said, if I'd known then what I know now, my business would be twice the size it is now. I just... I got there eighteen years too late. So to your question, it is tough. If you're new in in any business, then there is a temptation to go for the big ticket stuff and compromise yourself on every other level. But people... And look at Richard Branson as a good example. People who are successful in almost every business aren't more talented than you and I. They've just stuck around longer.
[00:33:24] Dustin Serviss: Yeah.
[00:33:24] Sandro Forte: That's that's all they've done, and I say that with no disrespect to anyone. I know very few businesses where they were overnight sensations. Apple, that's a business that started, what, five... Fifty years ago. People forget that the iPhone only really came to prominence in, what, the nineteen nineties. It had been around twenty five years before that. Amazon, the same. Okay. Different iterations of the business. But, nevertheless, success is a long term process. You gotta hang in there.
[00:33:53] Dustin Serviss: Yeah. No. I appreciate that. Sandro, you are part of multiple boards into fitness. I'm closing it off with giving you the the open mic for the thing you're most excited about, whether it's in personal breakthrough, professionally, reduction of something. But what is new? It could be AI. What is new from over the pond?
[00:34:18] Sandro Forte: Apart from tackling a government that not many people are supporting right now. And Are
[00:34:23] Dustin Serviss: are any countries ever supported their government, though, Cedric?
[00:34:25] Sandro Forte: I'm I'm ashamed of the shift that we've seen in in, government policy over the last sort of ten years. Anyway, notwithstanding all of that, one thing that I've always done, and I guess if I could leave everyone listening with one little idea to take away, would be we all have goals and objectives. I have something I call an horizon goal, and the horizon goal is something I always stick somewhere in the distance. Right? I'm a great believer that people fail in life not because they aim too high and miss. People fail in life because they aim too low and hit. We have a natural tendency to want to remain comfortable.
[00:35:03] Sandro Forte: So I always have this kind of stretch goal, and I set these crazy objectives. I've walked up Whistler eight times in twenty four hours to raise money for charity. I've run a couple of London marathons. I've just entered to run my third thirty years, thirty one years after my last. But the one that I'm most excited about, and please don't laugh and you can hold me to this, I am... I love the gym. I love working out. I love sport. I love staying as fit as I possibly can. It is my my... I describe it as meditation. It's not meditation in the true sense, but it is my little oasis at seven o'clock every morning, and it sets me up for the day.
[00:35:43] Sandro Forte: I switch off all outside communications. No podcast, no emails, no text messages, no phone calls, and I work out like a lunatic for an hour. And it's great. It keeps me mentally quite fit and physically fit. And if I feel better about myself, I perform better. But I always set myself one goal apart from marathon next year. I've just turned fifty eight. And by the time I'm sixty, so I have just under two years, I want to appear off... On the front cover of a men's health magazine.
[00:36:16] Dustin Serviss: Yes. I love it.
[00:36:18] Sandro Forte: I do not care which one it is. Anyone that will have me, but I want to enter a a physique competition, and at the age of sixty, win a competition and or appear on the front cover of a publication.
[00:36:32] Dustin Serviss: I love it. I absolutely love that goal because it's it's very tangible. It's gonna take a lot of work, but your physique's pretty good already there. So now it's just about connections, which I know you're a good connector. So if I can help in any way, let me know in Canada if there's
[00:36:50] Sandro Forte: Well, the thing is, even if I don't achieve it, and it's a pretty unrealistic goal, but even if I don't achieve it, what's the worst outcome? The worst outcome is I am still very fit. I'm still looking good. So I'm never I never worry about not achieving my goals. Because if they're pretty ambitious, I always travel a lot further than most people who just go, you know what? I'll lose five pounds. So I I don't think there's anything wrong with setting the bar. I'm not saying every goal should be unrealistic because then that's demotivating. But at least have a couple that really push you. And if you don't quite get there, guess what?
[00:37:24] Sandro Forte: You've gone a lot further than everyone else.
[00:37:26] Dustin Serviss: Oh, yeah. And it's still healthy for you overall. So thanks a lot, Sandro. Where could people find you if they're still excited? I know you got a few places online that people could find you. Where could people find you?
[00:37:38] Sandro Forte: The good news is there's not many Sandro Forte. So on most of channels, most of my tangible stuff is on YouTube. So Sandro Forte and all my other social media handles, LinkedIn, not... I'm not so big on x, but Instagram Instagram, I'm the real Sandro Forte because somebody stole my name a few years back. Facebook, LinkedIn, x. I'm Sandro Forte. YouTube, Sandro Forte. Real Sandro Forte on Instagram.
[00:38:03] Dustin Serviss: Awesome. Thanks a lot, Sandro,
[00:38:04] Sandro Forte: for coming on the show. Good to see you, man.