Love What You Do With Joel Sherlock (#53) — Transcript
Updated: Oct 26
THE PICTURE OF WEALTH · EPISODE 53
Dustin Serviss speaks with Joel Sherlock about freedom, entrepreneurship and building a capable team. They explore the extraction equipment business, investment decisions and treating time as a valuable asset.
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This transcript was generated from the episode audio and lightly edited for readability. It may contain transcription or speaker-attribution errors. Refer to the recording for exact wording.
Chapters
[00:00:34] Introducing Joel Sherlock
[00:02:53] What Vitalis Extraction builds
[00:09:00] Hiring smart people
[00:10:37] Team-first investing
[00:15:55] Entering the cannabis industry
[00:18:38] Scaling a team and managing pressure
[00:21:18] The Oura ring and travel routines
[00:24:22] Recognizing strengths and hiring a CEO
[00:28:15] The customer experience
[00:42:13] Commercial property and tenant risk
Guest & resources
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Transcript
[00:00:01] Show announcer: On this episode of the Picture of Wealth, Dustin sits down with Joel Sherlock, a successful entrepreneur and investor, to talk about what freedom means to him.
[00:00:10] Joel Sherlock: That to me is is freedom. Right? If I wanna take a vacation, you know, can I?
[00:00:15] Show announcer: About hiring the right people.
[00:00:17] Joel Sherlock: Hire smart people so they can tell us what to do. We don't hire smart people so we can tell them what to do.
[00:00:22] Show announcer: And what makes businesses move.
[00:00:25] Joel Sherlock: And people have started to vote with their dollars, which makes companies move.
[00:00:28] Show announcer: So tune in and catch all this and more. Start living more of your life now.
[00:00:34] Dustin Serviss: That is the voice of Joel Sherlock, who is the CRO or chief revenue officer of a company called Vitalis Extraction. Now in this podcast, we go through all things like how he traveled three hundred days of the year and what tech tool he uses to monitor his sleep, to how to running an effective team, to investing in real estate, and what sort of markers of great investments, or what is a great investment and how to spot one to, all sorts of things like his history, of his father being in the life insurance business and how he uses those past knowledge nuggets to run an effective business partnership with, you
[00:01:14] Dustin Serviss: know, once multiple partners, now just one partner. And also explore the interesting world of extraction, which I thought it was all about. The exciting world of cannabis and how they extract actually food or caffeine out of certain things using their proprietary machines that they've built and how the world is adopting this sort of technology. It's a great podcast. I really enjoyed the the journey, and, I hope you enjoy it as well. I'm excited to have Joel Sherlock on the show today. I, you know, have known Joel for over twenty years and seen all sorts of career moves, shivits... Shivits. That's a new word. Pivots and shifts.
[00:01:56] Dustin Serviss: And, his latest venture is Vitalis Extraction, and, that's got a whole, story behind it. And I'm excited to have you on the show today, Joel.
[00:02:05] Joel Sherlock: Thanks for having me. Shivitz. I like it. We should keep that.
[00:02:09] Dustin Serviss: So, before we we get started, you and I had a great, chat a while back, and this is gonna debunk maybe some of the lifestyle well focus that I, I tell it on the show, but I know that we're gonna get into some some good stuff. But let's let's, warm up a little more traditional with, you know, give us the the where you're at right now with with your business, Vitalis. What is it? You know, this is public knowledge on there. Your your revenues, twenty five to fifty million. Maybe they're different. Maybe it's confidential, but that I did find online. But, definitely, interesting.
[00:02:46] Dustin Serviss: And, you're running a big team, and I think that will be very inspiring for our audience. So thanks a lot for being here today.
[00:02:53] Joel Sherlock: Yeah. Thanks for having me. Always fun. So, yeah, Vitalis Extraction Technology, we are we are a technology and manufacturing company. We make proprietary extraction equipment, so, like, big pressure vessels, you know, lots of really complex, extraction machines that work in pharmaceuticals, flavorings, food industries, you know, beer, cannabis has been a big market for us. So we use carbon dioxide and ethanol to essentially extract from botanical materials. We don't do the extractions ourselves. We design and customize the equipment. And then, you know, companies like Valens or, you know, Curaleaf or, you know, the... Those big guys.
[00:03:37] Joel Sherlock: Would would we actually make the equipment for those companies?
[00:03:41] Dustin Serviss: Okay. So that's, you know, and I learned something. I I thought it was strictly cannabis, but, you know, just enlighten us with some of the other technologies that that you... In the food industry, in Yeah. Your coffee. Huge.
[00:03:56] Joel Sherlock: Right? So coffee decaffeination is is kind of done really three ways. Right? It can be done Swiss water, which should be, like, you know, a a specific process. It's done in some areas with, like, dimethyl chloride, which is, like, really, really nasty chemicals, and then supercritical c o two. So, you know, we we do have, there's a couple of coffee companies that that we work with. One that's really interesting where they they actually take spent coffee. So, you know, like, after it's been roasted and then, you know, it's been served, basically, they take that... They extract out the remaining coffee oils, and then they sell
[00:04:33] Joel Sherlock: those to the cosmos... You know, cosmeceutical world as as it's called. And then the the actual bone dry, like, the the raffinate is milled into a coffee flour, which is vegan, high in protein, really, really cool stuff. It's called Ground Up. They're based out of, Calgary. Really, really cool company. We're... We are investors.
[00:04:52] Dustin Serviss: Yeah. We, well, as a coffee drinker, I'm sure many people in the podcast are probably sipping, yep. There you go. I've had mine this morning. Unpack the coffee thing again, the the decaffeination, because it's it's always kinda, like, fascinating to me how they actually do it, and it tastes kind of close.
[00:05:12] Joel Sherlock: Well, so, actually, that's that's one of the big things that we're working on right now is looking at, you know, how do we extract the caffeine and leave the rest of the flavonoids and, you know, all the other pieces that are... You know, that that make this varietal different from that varietal. Right? So so that's actually a a big piece. Right? Swiss Water does, apparently, it will... You know, again, I'm no coffee tasting expert. I just know if I like it and would have it again or not. But, you know, that's one of the things we're we're looking at right now is how do you keep more of that flavor profile but still remove all the caffeine?
[00:05:49] Dustin Serviss: Right. So is there any sort of specific coffees, not to name names, but the guy should be more... You know, I just learned the other day about organic seeds and how, you know, in a drought scenario right now where they will put Roundup on the actual field to, slow the growth to wait for the water, and it... Again, it's been a heat wave. Really? But... Yeah. So in in some non organic, you know, setups, that's what they do. And so I can't remember the term for it. You know, foodies would be telling me, but, you know, they were... You know, the the farm, they were explaining to me how, you know, that
[00:06:23] Dustin Serviss: might upset your tummy, you know, your stomach with eating certain grains, because of the process. And I have
[00:06:29] Joel Sherlock: to look up the word
[00:06:30] Dustin Serviss: as it starts with g. But you you think way, way back in the process of eating your food, you're like, why do I eat bread, this bread, and it doesn't give me a stomach ache, or I eat a grain like rice or einkorn or, you know, all this stuff? Well, it could be the process right back to how it's, fixed. So kinda, you know, coming back full circle, the... Is there, like, the... Whatever big word you use to decaffeinate coffee, dye... Oh, no.
[00:06:54] Joel Sherlock: That's just one of the chemicals they use, which which we don't work with. Right? We're looking to clean up a lot of those processes.
[00:07:01] Dustin Serviss: So would there be anywhere in the packaging if you're buying coffee to know if that has been used in the process? No.
[00:07:07] Joel Sherlock: And I mean, that's that's really for food where... What what I'm really interested in, like, our our life sciences team, like, our our food team really has sort of three legs. Right? There's there's this big push into, you know, alternative proteins. Right? So a lot of these, you know, like, the Impossible Burger and and, you know, like, Very Good Butcher was another cool company. Right? They're innovating new products. So people want, like, this color out of beets, or they want this protein out of lentils, which will make their vegan cheese stretchy. Like, so that... That's cool science. It's it's interesting, novel, new, applications
[00:07:46] Joel Sherlock: for our technology. There's also, you know, just cleaning up traditional industrial processes. Right? Like, what you're talking about is is something that a lot more people are looking into now. It's not just is it organic, but, like, where was it grown? How was it made? How was it processed? You know? Like, people care more about that information. And so now, you know, the the big manufacturers are like, hey. We we may not wanna use hydrocarbons to extract this. Right? We might wanna clean your extraction process because that's what the customer's looking for. And people have started to vote with their dollars, which makes companies move.
[00:08:23] Joel Sherlock: Yeah. Well,
[00:08:25] Dustin Serviss: we won't get into that. So I think right now, in today's current, you know, in social political environment, but I I think it's... You're you're leading into a... An interesting space of, you know, the podcast is a health and wealth Yeah. Setup. And and is there anywhere that you're... That, like, you guys get your facts, I'll call it, when you're trying to, like... Oh. Or the the science team that you have when they're trying to figure out, you know, processes or
[00:08:54] Joel Sherlock: So where I get my facts is from the science team. Right?
[00:08:58] Dustin Serviss: So Yeah. We... You know, it's like...
[00:09:00] Joel Sherlock: It's the whole adage of, you know, you talk about the team. Right? It's like, you know, hire smart people so they can tell us what to do. We don't hire smart people so we can tell them what to do.
[00:09:09] Dustin Serviss: Right. And and And Go ahead.
[00:09:14] Joel Sherlock: Well, and and, like, a lot of the research institutions too. And and the cool part for us is we still have our, like, venture arm and, like, you know, I still am am an active investor. But a lot of that too will be, like, passionate entrepreneurs who bring us an idea, right, which was, you know, ground up where where... How we ended up working with them is they had a concept and they were like, hey. Could you help us figure out how to do this? And, you know, this is what we wanna do. How much coffee oil can we get out? And, you know, and so then we just help them sort of design the process on our equipment, to to get out what they need.
[00:09:48] Dustin Serviss: I I didn't realize that. So is there any, latest investments that you've made that you can talk about, or is it all somewhat proprietary? Or is there anything that No.
[00:09:57] Joel Sherlock: I mean, that that would be one of the one of the really cool ones. And and, you know, why it's so interesting right now, it's very topical because all of their products have just hit the market. So their spent grain flour, their coffee flour, their pancake mix, you know, it's all on GroundUp. EcoVentures is the company's name.
[00:10:14] Dustin Serviss: Okay. So it's GroundUp EcoVentures. Now, you know, for for any of the investment techies in the list... In the audience listening, when you make an investment, is there a a a standard process or standard operating thing, or is it Joel and his team's intuition? Or how does that work? What... You know, or what do you look for at a good investment?
[00:10:37] Joel Sherlock: Oh, well, I mean, ultimately, for us, it's it's team. It's team first. Right? I mean, when we're looking at an... When I'm looking at an investment, if all I'm bringing to the table is money, then it's probably not the right investment. Right? I mean, if we can bring cash know how, expertise, market, marketing, you know, whatever that may be, then, you know, it makes... Number one, it makes our investment dollars a different color, you know, to that entrepreneur. But for us, it also gives us a a a really interesting kind of alpha. Right? I mean, because now we're derisking it because we can bring money to the
[00:11:12] Joel Sherlock: table, but we also bring this expertise or manufacturing or, you know, whatever it may be. And and it just sort of supercharges the business that we're going into, which Right. You know, helps us grow the investment.
[00:11:24] Dustin Serviss: And have you had any investments that have failed?
[00:11:27] Joel Sherlock: And, yeah, I like to call them effective. You know, we just found effective things that don't work. Right? I've never made any it never made any mistakes. I've just invested heavily in my education.
[00:11:37] Dustin Serviss: Yeah. That's a Tim Ferris, thing. But Totally. Is there any any learning lessons out of investments, that are a pattern that you say, okay. Now I now I see things quickly that, I will not make that mistake again? Or
[00:11:53] Joel Sherlock: If I look at, like, Joel in his twenties to, you know, even in the early thirties, it was just, like, run, gun. Hey. That sounds like a great idea. Good. I'm in. Right? It's Yeah. Like, where's the business plan? Where's the scrutiny? Right? You know, like, let's... What what are the if... What are the risks here? Right? What what what, you know... And here are the projections. Right? Like, we joke that I think there's more lies that are that are told in in Excel sheets than anywhere else in the world, right, of, like, here's what's gonna happen. Look at this hockey stick growth curve that everybody has. Right?
[00:12:25] Joel Sherlock: But what what are the chances of hitting that? Right? What are the risks? What does the competitive landscape look like? I mean, you know, I mean, ultimately, in in one of my real estate companies, right, like, it it got to a point where I'm going, gosh. I don't know if I wanna... You know, we... We're building this thing up. It's it's it's a huge business, but, you know, I'm not really loving it. I'm not enjoying it. It feels a lot like work, and that for me is is kind of a a tipping point. I love to work. Right? But I... It has to be on the right projects and in the right things.
[00:12:56] Dustin Serviss: Right. And so, thanks for that setup because you just started it. We're gonna drive right into, what I was hoping to talk about. In in your case, you know, again, we talk about the podcast. It's the unofficial mantra that I say almost all the time, which is, you know, we're trying to help people live more of their life now yet be, you know, responsible for their future. You know, and and that, you know, I've always been a work life balance and, you know, try to get your workdays, you know, condensed and and maybe take a Friday or two off. You know? And and then, you know, find all this balance in your life, and you
[00:13:28] Dustin Serviss: don't put everything into... Not necessarily... Not everything in the business, but you find ways to to find that balance like you say. So in your case, you know, when we were pre chatting, you know, you were... You're you're just have this... An amazing passion for the business, the project, and and generating a team and a and a growing business. And I think that's the balance that I haven't talked about enough in that as entrepreneurs, you have some sort of DNA or fiber that says to you, I want to go. I'm competitive. I want to just hard charge, and I want to go and grow. And so in your case, what is that driving factor
[00:14:05] Dustin Serviss: that helps you put in the long hours?
[00:14:10] Joel Sherlock: You know what? I don't know. I... It's just always been in me. Right? Right. The the... And and I've gotten a lot clearer on it. Right? I mean, I love building businesses. I love looking at the ideas. I love, you know, just that that startup ethos is is fantastic. Right? Ultimately, growing new teams or new businesses or or new ideas and and seeing them through is something I'm super passionate about. Right? It's, it... It's the the the mental challenge on it, the learning. Right? Like, what did I know about coffee before doing that deal? Very little other than, you know, I drink it. You know?
[00:14:51] Joel Sherlock: I like this taste better than that taste, whatever it may be. So it's... Part of it for me is the learning. Right? And then, you know, to be able to have, like, a hypothesis and then put something together and then have it validated by clients or customers, you know, I love that. Right? From from an investment strategy, like, I love building these, and then we love, you know, owning or having a good base, you know, that business that's consistent. Right? Because the businesses that go up also probably will have some fluctuation to them, and that can be super stressful. But if it's underpinned with, you know, good, consistent revenue
[00:15:29] Joel Sherlock: that's growing, that's, you know, that's kind of the the dream.
[00:15:33] Dustin Serviss: It keeps you keeps you... And how... Like, you... So in the... Vitalis was founded in what year?
[00:15:40] Joel Sherlock: Six years old. So So... And Do the math backwards, sir.
[00:15:44] Dustin Serviss: Five years, four years ago was was the marijuana gold rush, at the... Or the... Was that sort of when it got legalized? I can't remember the exact sort of time.
[00:15:55] Joel Sherlock: Yeah. So, I mean, I think the early... You know, it was twenty fourteen when when the ACMPR and then, like, you know, those regulations kind of came in, in... Into play. Right? But, you know, at that time, I was in the real estate world. I'm... I wasn't and really... I'm still not a huge cannabis user. Right? I'm I'm a big wine guy. Yeah. But it was a tenant who came to us and and said, hey. You know, ten bucks a square foot for that warehouse. I'll give you twelve. And I thought, that's terrible negotiating. Why?
[00:16:24] Dustin Serviss: Yeah. And they
[00:16:25] Joel Sherlock: were like, we have a license from the government to grow cannabis, and I started laughing. I was like, yeah. Sure. And I got a bridge in Brooklyn.
[00:16:31] Dustin Serviss: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:16:33] Joel Sherlock: But, you know, like, they had a letter from the mayor and the chief of police, and, you know, they had their resumes, and they were like... They they made a good case. And I was like, yeah. I'm not interested. Have a nice day.
[00:16:44] Dustin Serviss: Yeah.
[00:16:45] Joel Sherlock: And then, you know, started checking into it because I was like, this can't be real. Like, I I totally thought I'm like, this is good Photoshop, though. Yeah. But, you know, Walter Gray was our mayor at the time, and he and I sat on a board together. And, you know, I ended up, you know, chatting with Walter, and he's like, oh, he knew who the guys were. They they were reputable, and I was like, wow. So then, you know, called Health Canada, got my education on it, you know, called the bank and said, hey. If if we put a tenant in here that's a legal cannabis business, you know, do we still have a mortgage, or how's that gonna work?
[00:17:15] Joel Sherlock: So it was in the very, very early days. But, you know, I I still can't grow plants. I'm successful. I'm very good at killing them, not not good at keeping them. But I was always in the ancillary side. Right? Like, equipment finance. We were in the auto world for a while, real estate world, and, you know, like, I understood that side of things. So we started financing and investing in those kind of companies, lights, fertilizers, and then extraction machines.
[00:17:43] Dustin Serviss: Right.
[00:17:44] Joel Sherlock: And, you know, you saw the market kind of coming up. The service... And this is kind of how a lot of these ideas come up. The service we were getting from some of these manufacturers was terrible. Right.
[00:17:55] Dustin Serviss: You
[00:17:55] Joel Sherlock: know, there was one who who sold us a piece of equipment, and then when we called them for some help, they're like, well, where is it? And I said, well, it's in a company we're invested in in the cannabis space. And they're like, yeah. They're not built for that, so we don't service them. I'm like, but you sold it to me for that use. And so it was really out of, like, frustration where I wanted to streamline everything into one platform and, you know, went out to the manufacturers that existed, and, ultimately, they they told me no customization and no deals. So went to a friend of mine who was an engineer in the oil
[00:18:29] Joel Sherlock: and gas industry and said, hey. Could you build me a couple of these, and what do you think? He came up with some amazing designs, and, off we went.
[00:18:38] Dustin Serviss: So so that was what... You know, what I was gonna pulls notes. Well, that that... It it it really, it draws light on that... Those years, though, you were on the hockey stick, and you were having to build a team extremely, you know, quickly. And, and burnout and stress and all that stuff was was a legit sort of right on the line, through there. So it... Has it has it leveled off? Have have you have you just pivot... You know, gone to a different growth channel? Or or has that space, correct me if I'm wrong, has slowed down?
[00:19:16] Joel Sherlock: So the... Well, I mean, yes. For sure. But we've kind of built a great team behind us. Right? We've had to change the business. Right? We used to manage all of our service for the globe. Right? Like, we have offices on on four continents, and, you know, we used to run all of our service team from here. With borders and everything that's going on right now, we've had to to change that up, and now we have service techs in the US and service decks in Latin America and service decks in, in Europe. So... And and and even Australia. So that side of things has changed. Right? I mean, during those crazy, crazy growth years, I mean, I was traveling,
[00:19:59] Joel Sherlock: like, two hundred and fifty, three hundred days a year on the road, which was so amazing and fun at times, but super taxing. And, you know, you gotta be really, really conscious of, like, health and sleep and, you know, all of those things. So, you know, we... Again, that came to a grinding halt with with everything that's happened. It's it's starting back up now in a pretty major way, and and I'm I'm excited and terrified at the same time. But, overall, I mean, you know, the the industry has shifted. Right? A lot of these... The consolidation is happening. Right? The big players who are more sophisticated buyers are starting
[00:20:39] Joel Sherlock: to go state by state or they're... You know, like, Redican selling to HEXO for nine hundred and fifty million, you know, was because they have a great system. Right? They they are making money, and they are proven professionals in the space. And, you know, it shows with their market share and all the products they've been able to put out and keep out.
[00:20:59] Dustin Serviss: So side tangent about the travel. Yep. Again, you look like a fit guy. We haven't seen each other in person in probably a year. But, how do you balance that? How do you stay reasonably fit?
[00:21:15] Joel Sherlock: Have have you seen these?
[00:21:17] Dustin Serviss: No. This is one of
[00:21:18] Joel Sherlock: my favorite things. So it's called an Oura ring.
[00:21:21] Dustin Serviss: Okay. So it's a ring. I... For anyone who can't see the screen, yeah, it's
[00:21:24] Joel Sherlock: a ring. Okay? So... But it tracks, like, heart rate, body temperature, sleep, which was a big one because, I mean, there would be times where in a week, I'd be in four different time zones. Right. Right? And, like, I know about myself that I can push through when needed, but if you're always pushing through, that's not healthy and not sustainable. Right? So you gotta have that balance. Even when you're in a sprint, you gotta make sure that, you know, you're you're eating right. You're, you know, getting those workouts in when you can and prioritizing those things. That's something that I... Arguably, I can be better at.
[00:22:02] Joel Sherlock: But the sleep side is is hugely important.
[00:22:04] Dustin Serviss: And does the Oura ring, come back to that. So have you figured out how to work out on a plane? You figured out any, like, breathing techniques? Or,
[00:22:14] Joel Sherlock: Yeah. Actually, you know what? I I I... If I could see if I can find that. There's just some good things for, like, circulation. Right? Like, just even standing up and, like, doing some calf raises on some, like, long flights. Just... It's not about, like, getting fit there. That's about just getting your blood circulation going.
[00:22:30] Dustin Serviss: Or being mindful of it. So tell me more about this Oura ring. So, you have an app on your phone, I assume?
[00:22:36] Joel Sherlock: You got an app on your phone. I mean, it gives you, like, a sleep score. But more so for me, it was just... You know, if I got three days of poor sleep, I might cancel some meetings and, like, just make sure I clear some space to get caught up. Right? Because it's gonna catch up with you.
[00:22:51] Dustin Serviss: Yeah. On that note, when you manage... So help us understand the teams again. And so what divisions are there, and then how many people kinda are... You know, I know you oversee a a team of a management team, but, like, how many people are you coordinating?
[00:23:11] Joel Sherlock: So, I mean, up up until last month, I mean, I I was our chairman when we started the company for the first four years. And, you know, I was kinda flying around figuring out new markets. I spent a lot of time kind of, you know, when we're going to the US, great. Great. How are we gonna tackle that? Latin America, how are we gonna tackle that? Europe, how are we gonna tackle that? And then, you know, over the last eighteen months, I've I've been our CEO. So there, you know, engineering, science, sales, marketing, finance would kind of be the the main hubs and then, you know, manufacturing and production. And then quality, you know, it it...
[00:23:48] Joel Sherlock: We have quite a flat organization. So there were, you know, there were a lot of direct reports that that took up a lot of time, but luckily, we have, you know, great people in the company. And then very recently, we've brought on a new CEO. So, I've just... You know, I... My focus is now narrowed down to our sales and marketing teams, and then, you know, our CEO is looking after the rest, which has been great.
[00:24:14] Dustin Serviss: Are you excited, nervous, scared of, relinquishing that control, or or do you have it mapped out?
[00:24:22] Joel Sherlock: You know what? I... I've got it mapped out, and I'm super excited for it. Right? Because there was... You know, one thing I'm really good at is is owning my weaknesses. Right? And and, like, I love those new opportunities. I love the sales side. I love the marketing side. Right? And then the CEO needs to be kind of that metronome of consistency and drive. Right? I mean, that that that guy... And so, you know, Carlos got way more experience than I have. You know, this is the first manufacturing company that that, you know, I've owned, so I'm not an expert in in that. There are things that I don't see, things that he just inherently picks up,
[00:25:00] Joel Sherlock: right, which is fantastic because he's been at the helm of four over, you know, the past thirty years of his career. He's been the CEO of... And and, like, big companies. One was a power company selling to the defense industry. The other one was, like, fiber optic networks and all that kind of stuff. So, you know, he's got a lot of experience. You you know, he's made a lot of the mistakes that I probably would. He's already made them. So happy to hand the keys over to him and not have to make them again.
[00:25:27] Dustin Serviss: Do, is, and you don't have to answer if it's not appropriate. But is there... Is it a board? Do you have a, like, a a board above the management, or is it you and a team of people that own it? How does how does that So... Yeah.
[00:25:40] Joel Sherlock: I mean, you know, myself and my business partner are the board. So the CEO reports to the board. Gotcha. So, you know, that's actually a unique a unique one. Right? Because I am CRO, chief revenue officer, and then I report to the CEO, and then he reports to the board, which is Gotcha. Which is also me. So interesting dynamic, something that we talked a lot about through the interview process. Right? To to have two active founders in a company and and to bring in, you know, a CEO, it's really important that you do hand those reins over. And now, you know, like, just deal with it on a board level.
[00:26:16] Dustin Serviss: Yeah. And that's, and then maybe in the future, you know, if it... You know, you go public or you do whatever, then that, you know, is a a new kettle of fish. But, on the on the, the sales side, is there any... So you were, I'll call it a successful salesperson at BMW back, in the day. Is there any old BMW sales tricks, stories? You know, obviously, they're a great, you know, organization, with a with a great brand, but, is there anything you still use today that you learned in those old trenches?
[00:26:50] Joel Sherlock: You know what I mean? I I was successful in the car business, I believe, because I didn't need people to buy and, like, taking away that pressure. Right? And and that was really where I first saw it. Right? So I... You know, I was flipping real estate, and then the bank wanted me to have a job. One of my business mentors is in the is in the auto world, and they were opening a new BMW store. And I never sold cars before, but I was... And also a couple of things. I can't sell anything I don't believe in. Right. You know, I can't sell anything I'm not passionate about.
[00:27:21] Joel Sherlock: And I was very successful, I think, because people come in with this preconceived notion that car car salesmen are gonna, like, jump on them and attack them, and a lot of them do. Whereas, like, you know, I I was sitting there like, you don't have to buy a car today, do you? Because I... You know, just, like, let's let's drive some things. Let's have some fun. Let's see what happens. If you need one, great. If you don't, great. But that lack of pressure, I feel, was what drove the early success. But the early success and then the referrals from that, it got to a point where, you know, I wasn't taking ups as they would be called. Right?
[00:27:55] Joel Sherlock: Like, people who walked in, I was just dealing with my referred clients, and that was it.
[00:28:00] Dustin Serviss: Right. And so is there is there anything that you remember about, like, oh, wow. That sort of work that you use today? That's sort of like a long standing sales. Because sales and marketing is your, you know, real estate we haven't even talked on, but you were, you know, great at that.
[00:28:15] Joel Sherlock: It it really... For me, it boils down to, you know, I... Well, it's the customer experience. Right? I mean, what what does it look like for the customer who... Whatever business you're in. Right? How is that experience for them, and would they tell their friends about it? And and, you know, if you just pour yourself into that, then I think that drives results, and then that drives, you know, other people who are looking for that type of experience. Right? If it's real estate, if it's cars, if it's manufacturing. Right? The nuances of what makes a good customer experience are different between the...
[00:28:49] Joel Sherlock: But the fact that somebody wants to be looked after, right, and they wanna get a good deal and they wanna feel good about what they've purchased, all of that is just universal. Doesn't matter if it's investments or, you know... And I and I think, oftentimes, people are looking for that whiz bang. You know, what's... If if I buy these ads on LinkedIn, then my business will explode. Right? I mean, ultimately, if if you look after customers and they wanna work with you, then usually that's good business.
[00:29:17] Dustin Serviss: Yeah. The, you know, back then in real estate, say you're into the six figures of, you know, sort of income. Now your your revenues, you're dealing with more massive numbers in the tens of millions. Is is it any... It is... Does your mindset change, or is it just different numbers? Like, obviously, before, if you know what you're you're real estate, you know, you're running a business.
[00:29:40] Joel Sherlock: Yeah.
[00:29:40] Dustin Serviss: Numbers might be smaller, but you're still running business, but the numbers are much bigger. Loans might be bigger. How does that feel and look?
[00:29:49] Joel Sherlock: You know, I guess it goes back to one of my business mentors, Peter Thomas, had told me early on, you know, because we were we were doing real estate deals. I was, you know, flipping single family homes, and he was doing, you know, big apartment buildings and different things. And he goes, Joel, it's the same game. More zeros. You know, now living it now, it... You know, you you really have to understand what you're doing and where those numbers are coming from because, you know, here, if you do take, you know, ten million dollars of debt or, you know, you spend a million dollars on marketing, if you get that wrong, that's pain...
[00:30:24] Joel Sherlock: That's painful. So, you know, a little bit more time thought, you know, and and, ultimately, it's bigger, but you still wanna test with smaller numbers. Right? If you're trying a new trade show, you know, don't sign up for... If, you know, a hundred at a time. Try one. You know? See if it works. Try a second and see if you can double your results. Right? And then go ahead and and, like, weave it into into the fabric of what you're doing.
[00:30:50] Dustin Serviss: Your your your father was in the life insurance game. Is that correct?
[00:30:55] Joel Sherlock: Dad dad was. Yeah. Manulife.
[00:30:57] Dustin Serviss: So, again, life insurance would be about the pinnacle of, risk management. Is there anything you remember, like, from his upbringing and his kind of mentorship that that you use now, in your risk management of your business? And when we're obviously... When we're coaching people, we talk about if your risk isn't managed, it's hard to make a, opportunity decision or or an investment decision from a place of offense. You are... You're... When you go have to make the decision to buy or invest in something, you're gonna be, or buy a business or make a career shift. Yeah.
[00:31:32] Dustin Serviss: If you're if if you're exposed, if your income stopped because you got disabled or or died and your your family will be impacted, and that may stall up you making an investment decision. So So, I
[00:31:44] Joel Sherlock: mean, I would I
[00:31:45] Dustin Serviss: would go now. Yeah. So I I guess two things.
[00:31:47] Joel Sherlock: Right? Like, my grandfather was also in that industry. He was Okay. An an icon. So, you know, I mean, I I think in my first year of college, they handed me a book that was written by Herbert Vivian Williams, who Okay. There's only one dude on the planet with that name. And and so, you know, I I was raised with that and and really understood it. I mean, I I look at it a little differently. Right? Because, you know, when when you look at the insurance that we have, right, so we are talking big numbers at this point. And, you know, if I were to get hit by a bus, it's a dark concept, but it's what we sort of talk about. You know, then,
[00:32:25] Joel Sherlock: like, we've got a family trust structure. So, you know, all of a sudden, James, my business partner, would be, you know, potentially in business with the beneficiaries of my trust. Right? Not me anymore. Or you'd have to go and scramble and and raise some cash to buy out those shares. Right? And same thing for me, almost even even more so, right, is is James is our lead engineer, and and he's, you know, he's he's the he's the, Tony Stark of our organization. Right? He has all the ideas, designs all the tech. And so, you know, if if he were to get hit by a bus, you know, then, you know, being in business with with his his partner,
[00:33:06] Joel Sherlock: you know, wouldn't be the same for the business. Right? Because she's she's not a mechanical engineer. She's, you know, it's all those things. So, you know, we kind of manage it in in, like, business continuity would be really, really difficult if if that were to happen to either one of us. So, you know, we have the insurance in place where it's like, okay. Well, we don't have to strap the business or cash strap the business to try and buy out that that partner should anything happen. It's like the insurance is there, so you don't have to worry about it.
[00:33:35] Dustin Serviss: Yeah. Which is is fantastic planning. It was... Who was the one that in... You know, encouraged that, or was that... Was it a lawyer? Was it accountant? Because a lot of business partners, underestimate that, oh, well, you know, something happened. They'll just buy out whatever. Well, liquid cash from the... In the form of life insurance is, and and thanks for the setup, by the way, because that wasn't... You're talking about that. But, you know, when when we do these type setups, it is underestimated how much impact if James is gone or you're gone. That's a major shitty situation.
[00:34:08] Dustin Serviss: So liquid cash, and especially if it's term or it's permanent insurance, like, term is so cheap, especially for most young people. Millions of dollars is is is a hundreds of doll... You know, a couple hundred dollars a month. Well
[00:34:21] Joel Sherlock: Totally. You know,
[00:34:21] Dustin Serviss: was there... Who was the one that kind of enlightened you to to take those steps?
[00:34:27] Joel Sherlock: The honest story there? And, well, you know, I think a lot of people had told us to do it in the beginning. Right? And and there was sort of a couple of things. You know, we we did buy out one of our partners, so we went through that experience. And then we started having that conversation of, hey. You know, we should probably get this together for us now. You know, so we always had smaller policies, but but, you know, something that's more specific around, you know, death or disability, you know, was was something that was important to us, right, for for business continuity. Right? Because we have, you know, seventy mortgages,
[00:35:04] Joel Sherlock: like, seventy people who who have put their trust in us, right Right. To make sure that this business continues, that their career continues, that these paychecks clear, that the company grows. You know, so a lot of it is business continuity for us. That was a super important part.
[00:35:21] Dustin Serviss: That's that's, you know, I didn't actually realize that, but I guess that's a that's a whole revenue stream for the business as well. It's part of the sales and then it's part of the financing of... So you've got a unit. And just to kind of help people understand the extraction unit is this big thing on a skid. Some are small, some are big. Big tanks, a couple pumps, I assume, and a power unit. How's how's that going? You're pro.
[00:35:46] Joel Sherlock: That's perfect.
[00:35:47] Dustin Serviss: There you go. And, and so those units cost, how much does a unit cost or it... Or what's the range? Because you got small and big.
[00:35:56] Joel Sherlock: Yeah. Your range is kinda like three hundred thousand to, like, over a million.
[00:36:02] Dustin Serviss: Right. For
[00:36:04] Joel Sherlock: a year. And then our custom stuff, like some of these food applications we're talking about, that could be like... We've got one design out right now, which should be a two year build, and it's about a ten million dollar project.
[00:36:14] Dustin Serviss: Right. And so this is not a skid. This is more of a facility.
[00:36:17] Joel Sherlock: A whole factory.
[00:36:19] Dustin Serviss: A factory. You bet. So, that person would finance. You guys are having to deal with, you know, banks, and then you're kind of the middle person. You take a bid on yourself. Is is that a... Is that, like, almost a a model that you could use for for other things? Like, not only selling it, but, I guess, do you have to do the financing to make the sale? Is that is that the question?
[00:36:41] Joel Sherlock: So we we actually, we have a separate entity for that, which is... You know, because there are different people who wanna invest in in, you know, equipment or asset backed financing. Right? So Spectrum Leasing is, you know, one of the companies, and that's got a team specific to equipment finance. Because it can be very awkward to be, the debt collector and the customer service agent at the same time. And you look at, like, a lot of other industries. Right? Like, auto is done that way. Right? If you go back to the BMW days, it's like BMW is there to sell you the vehicle and is there to service the vehicle. Make sure your experience is good.
[00:37:20] Joel Sherlock: Make sure you want another one. Make sure you stay in the family. Right? But they know that if they have finance and lease options, they'll sell more cars. So then the car is basically sold to BMW Financial. They manage the payments. This this side manages the service and the experience.
[00:37:37] Dustin Serviss: And so... Yeah. So you got this this thing. And and what... You know, for the future, what is... You know, with all the the global stuff and your growth, and and are you able to sell? Are we back in B and W land where you've got such a great product that, you know, people are continually coming to you, or are you expanding to other markets? And and what are you gonna have to do to do that?
[00:37:59] Joel Sherlock: So... Yeah. I mean, you know, with this consolidation that's happening in in hemp and cannabis, you know, ultimately, there are bigger facilities, higher throughput, and, you know, the regulations are are only going one way. Right? And that's really our bailiwick, right, is is, like, high throughput. We we made machines for professional operators.
[00:38:21] Dustin Serviss: What's through?
[00:38:22] Joel Sherlock: Like, how much biomass you can get through the machine Gotcha. In a day. Gotcha. Okay. You know, what what you're... You know, what what... So when you start to talk about, like, CapEx versus OpEx, right, so, like, how much it costs to buy the machine and how much it costs to run the machine, those are two really, really important numbers. In the early days, it was like, how fast can I have one? Like, our equipment is very expensive to buy and very inexpensive to run.
[00:38:47] Dustin Serviss: Okay.
[00:38:48] Joel Sherlock: Right? So if you look at, like, Coke or Pepsi, if if they could save a penny per can, you know, they'd spend a hundred million dollars because the numbers make sense.
[00:38:58] Dustin Serviss: Right.
[00:38:59] Joel Sherlock: Right? I'm just making those numbers up. No.
[00:39:01] Dustin Serviss: Yeah. But that's that's
[00:39:03] Joel Sherlock: Right. And and so that's really... When when some of the early equipment that came out from from some of our competitors, it was cheaper to buy but way more expensive to operate. And then all of a sudden, you're like, well, hey. I spent a hundred and fifty thousand instead of five hundred thousand. But now I'm paying ten grand or fifteen thousand a month in solvents and different stuff because... And whereas the c o two machine would have been, you know, a couple hundred bucks a month. So then there's, like, this this inflection point where it becomes more expensive to use the cheaper option.
[00:39:37] Dustin Serviss: Right. And then is that a... So then you're not selling c o two, so there's not... Your business model is built primarily on on sales, servicing it after the fact. But is there, like, a a maintenance program that people sign up for, a maintenance level
[00:39:50] Joel Sherlock: that you keep? Yep. Yeah. So that's that's a big part of it too. You know, much... Again, keep going back to auto just because I'm I'm a big car guy and... But, you know, it's like you can sell the car. Right? There's that initial sale, but then there's the servicing of it, especially in in industrial equipment. Like, maintenance is not optional. Right? And you've gotta do that preventative maintenance to make sure that you don't have downtime. Because in a pharmaceutical facility, downtime can be very, very expensive. So, you know, their maintenance teams oftentimes on those sites
[00:40:23] Joel Sherlock: will be, you know, the the most important person on the site, right, to say, hey. It's time to shut down. We gotta change those pump seals. It's time to shut down. We've gotta do this. Because they know if they run it too far and something breaks, the maintenance might take six hours, three hours, two hours, whatever, but the downtime might take two days, and that'll really throw off a production schedule.
[00:40:44] Dustin Serviss: Yep. And, yeah, I was gonna go... I think we got a whole other podcast that we could do, but I I do, many of the listeners are, you know, in in sort of our sphere, real estate investment is a a key part of the portfolio and something that that we like as well. Is there... On that front and what you've seen sort of in your your history of good investments, is there good real estate investments that jump out or... And especially now, I know you you still kind of look at real estate and and make decisions. But is it harder to find good real estate now? Or where are we at in sort of the buying? Or or where...
[00:41:23] Dustin Serviss: What could people use as sort of the Yeah. Top two things to look for in buying investment real estate?
[00:41:30] Joel Sherlock: So I I mean, personally, I'll just... I've I've shifted away from residential and more towards commercial. K. And that's just... You know, I mean, the the cap rates are more attractive. Like, I love real estate. Like, that's the the boring, beautiful underpinning which allows you to kind of run at new ideas and new things because you have that kind of consistent income or or, you know, that that that equity that's there. So I love real estate. But for me, I always look at it, you know, like, what's what's the chance that it's going to be vacant? Right? Because you look at, like... Well, let's have a cannabis example. Right?
[00:42:13] Joel Sherlock: Like, if if you invest in a in a commercial facility that's really, really specific to just growing cannabis and that tenant fails. And the chance of them failing in an emerging market is higher than if the guys are... You know, if it's a bakery that's been around for thirty years.
[00:42:31] Dustin Serviss: Right.
[00:42:32] Joel Sherlock: Right? It's a new business, so the chance of it failing is higher than an established business. And then if they fail, it can only really be leased to another cannabis user. So that kind of specificity of of the product really terrifies me. Right? Yeah. I'd rather have, like... Here's a warehouse, and it could be used by Vitalis to manufacture extraction machines. It could be used by, you know, a beverage storage company. It could be used by anyone or welding company. It doesn't matter. Yeah. And so, you know, that kind of stuff is is really attractive.
[00:43:04] Dustin Serviss: So, I would say in your circle of competence or in strategic uses for your own business. And, let... We've got a few minutes left, and I think that there's a... There's an interesting example. So, I live in Salmon Arm. Recently, there was... So if you wanna just kinda jot this down, so point seven of an acre industrial lot, seven thousand square foot, just basically, steel building, corrugated steel. Four fourteen foot doors. K. So just a, basically a big rectangle, high ceilings, built in two thousand seven. Okay? And it's rented to search and rescue. K? Got it. It's a... It's it's, one year into a ten year lease.
[00:43:53] Joel Sherlock: Beautiful.
[00:43:54] Dustin Serviss: K. So, one point three five is what it's listed for. Okay? And the rent, is about fifty six hundred. So I know people are listening like, I I can't keep track. It's okay. The the net net of all...
[00:44:06] Joel Sherlock: So it's a four cap?
[00:44:07] Dustin Serviss: Yes. So three point actually eight or whatever it is. So it's it's pretty low, when you factor in all the expenses. That building, like, if you're trying to get five and a half or five should be one one one... You know, that building just sold for one two fifty.
[00:44:24] Joel Sherlock: Yep.
[00:44:24] Dustin Serviss: So that person is taking on basically, yeah, three point nine two or four, you know, depending on how you do the expenses. Basically, pretty low cap rate. It it... Would you...
[00:44:36] Joel Sherlock: Search and rescue though. Yeah. Oh, so... But I mean...
[00:44:39] Dustin Serviss: One one caveat. I gotta finish. Yeah. Nine years left on the lease, and the lease is only increasing, like, about two and a half percent a year. So the value... Like, when I was looking at it as an as an investment, I was thinking, oh, well, the the price of the building will be worth double. And instead of having my money sitting in the bank making nothing, might as well have it sitting in this lot. But then the lease at year nine, ten wasn't... It hadn't
[00:45:06] Joel Sherlock: increased much.
[00:45:09] Dustin Serviss: So how do you nav... Like like, what... So for one, how do you navigate the cap rate for two? You know, is a long lease a good idea or not?
[00:45:18] Joel Sherlock: Long leases can be great, but you you know, what you're talking about is exactly what you need to look at. Right? In ten years from now, where do you expect rents to be? Right? I think they're gonna increase, especially in in some elements of, you know, what I know about Salmon Arm. So the the guys at Valid Manufacturing are are very good friends. Right. This... And so, you know, they're, I think, Salmon Arm's largest employer, I believe. Yeah. And so... You know? But the industrial land up there is a lot less than it would be here. The cap rates, probably similar. Right? I mean, to have a long lease like that and and to have a
[00:45:54] Joel Sherlock: safe tenant like that... Like, search and rescue isn't gonna go bankrupt. Yep. Right? They're they're funded. Right? Like, Royal Bank as a tenant is is gonna be a great tenant. So the cap rate will be less because the risk is less. But, yeah, you gotta look at the whole deal, and you gotta look at what else is happening in the market. And, you know, I think there's probably some people listening to this, seasoned real estate people who are like, that's a brilliant deal, and there are other people who are like, I wouldn't touch it.
[00:46:23] Dustin Serviss: It's just totally market. Right?
[00:46:25] Joel Sherlock: What's what's your investment philosophy? And what are you looking at? Right?
[00:46:28] Dustin Serviss: Yeah. Well, I think a lot of people... I see in my clients right now, a lot of people have cash.
[00:46:32] Joel Sherlock: Mhmm.
[00:46:32] Dustin Serviss: And they're they're saying, you know, it's been the bank. You know, stock market is fairly valued. Maybe it's gonna go a bit more. Maybe it's gonna correct. Who knows? Residential real estate's gone up thirty, you know, two percent. So, you know, probability of a continued increase before some sort of retraction, maybe it happens, but the probability is probably lower or higher that that... It can't go again. You know, maybe I'll be putting my foot in my mouth. But, with with, industrial, you think, okay, well, I could just instead of shifting the money, put it into this property.
[00:47:03] Dustin Serviss: But when you think, well, but then I've got I've got to deal with it. And it's it's kinda like the COVID mentality of, you know, people not wanting to go back to restaurant jobs, and they're just collecting their SERB versus, you know, do I want the effort? Is the effort worth the money? And and maybe we've... Or maybe I, if you know, show my bias, have lost the longer term vision and need to kinda check back to it to say, you know, if if it keeps going up and the tenant, then that's a great investment.
[00:47:32] Joel Sherlock: Well... And, you know, I mean, I was having this conversation yesterday with with a friend of ours who just... You know, over the last decade, he's amassed, I think, six or eight properties. Right? And, you know, all of a sudden, you're like, okay. Hey. You made a good lift on that, but you had to look after them for eight years and deal with all the tenants' issues and of the flood here or the roof there or whatever that may be. So, ultimately, I mean, when you really break it down after you've exited and you're like, okay. Well, basically, I had it for ten years. I made this much money, so, you know, I can can break...
[00:48:05] Joel Sherlock: Divide that by ten, and that's what you got paid to have your money tied up.
[00:48:09] Dustin Serviss: Right.
[00:48:10] Joel Sherlock: And, you know, commercial for me is is far less management than, than residential was. Right? Like, you know, I look at even some of our facilities. Like, we never call the landlord. You just look after it. Right? It's like somebody's running their business. They're paying your taxes. If if the taxes go up, you know, triple net leases, that's all on on someone else. So Yeah. I much prefer that for exactly what you're talking about. It's it's easier to manage and and less time out of, you know, my day.
[00:48:39] Dustin Serviss: Yeah. Well, Joel, thanks. In closing, I ask every guest, you know, what is your picture of wealth?
[00:48:48] Joel Sherlock: Oh, that's a great one. You know, I I think, ultimately, you know, it's freedom. Really. It boils down to freedom, location freedom, you know, idea freedom. It's it's that, that's that concept that... You know, can I freely work on the things that I'm passionate about? Right? Mhmm. And, you know, can I do that without worrying about how am I gonna pay my mortgage? How am I gonna pay my car payments? All those things. Right? That, to me, is is freedom. Right? If I wanna take a vacation, you know, can I? Right? Can I from a standpoint of, is the business set up in in such a way? Because there's... Time to me is my most valuable asset.
[00:49:31] Joel Sherlock: Money is very important, but money to me is just a tool that allows me to better leverage time, better leverage, you know, different things. So, yeah, for...
[00:49:42] Dustin Serviss: I I I really appreciate, our time, and, I'm sure we'll we'll follow you along and, in the journey, and hopefully, can get you for another podcast at, at some point. So thanks, Joel, for for sharing all that.
[00:49:53] Joel Sherlock: Sounds good. Thanks for having me.
[00:49:56] Dustin Serviss: You're welcome.
[00:49:58] Joel Sherlock: If you
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